Plato, Protagoras, ed. John Burnet, 347

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[347]

ΣΩ.

σὲ οὖν, καὶ εἰ μέσως 347 347a ἔλεγες ἐπιεικῆ καὶ ἀληθῆ, ὦ Πιττακέ, οὐκ ἄν ποτε ἔψεγον· νῦν δὲ σφόδρα γὰρ καὶ περὶ τῶν μεγίστων ψευδόμενος δοκεῖς ἀληθῆ λέγειν, διὰ ταῦτά σε ἐγὼ ψέγω. ταῦτά μοι δοκεῖ, ὦ Πρόδικε καὶ Πρωταγόρα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, Σιμωνίδης διανοούμενος πεποιηκέναι τοῦτο τὸ ᾆσμα.
καὶ ὁ Ἱππίας, εὖ μέν μοι δοκεῖς, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, καὶ σὺ περὶ τοῦ ᾄσματος διεληλυθέναι· ἔστιν μέντοι, ἔφη, καὶ 347b ἐμοὶ λόγος περὶ αὐτοῦ εὖ ἔχων, ὃν ὑμῖν ἐπιδείξω, ἂν βούλησθε.
καὶ ὁ Ἀλκιβιάδης, ναί, ἔφη, ὦ Ἱππία, εἰς αὖθίς γε· νῦν δὲ δίκαιόν ἐστιν ἃ ὡμολογησάτην πρὸς ἀλλήλω Πρωταγόρας καὶ Σωκράτης, Πρωταγόρας μὲν εἰ ἔτι βούλεται ἐρωτᾶν, ἀποκρίνεσθαι Σωκράτη, εἰ δὲ δὴ βούλεται Σωκράτει ἀποκρίνεσθαι, ἐρωτᾶν τὸν ἕτερον.
καὶ ἐγὼ εἶπον· Ἐπιτρέπω μὲν ἔγωγε Πρωταγόρᾳ ὁπότερον αὐτῷ ἥδιον· εἰ δὲ βούλεται, περὶ μὲν ᾀσμάτων τε καὶ ἐπῶν 347c ἐάσωμεν, περὶ δὲ ὧν τὸ πρῶτον ἐγώ σε ἠρώτησα, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, ἡδέως ἂν ἐπὶ τέλος ἔλθοιμι μετὰ σοῦ σκοπούμενος. καὶ γὰρ δοκεῖ μοι τὸ περὶ ποιήσεως διαλέγεσθαι ὁμοιότατον εἶναι τοῖς συμποσίοις τοῖς τῶν φαύλων καὶ ἀγοραίων ἀνθρώπων. καὶ γὰρ οὗτοι, διὰ τὸ μὴ δύνασθαι ἀλλήλοις διʼ ἑαυτῶν συνεῖναι ἐν τῷ πότῳ μηδὲ διὰ τῆς ἑαυτῶν φωνῆς καὶ τῶν λόγων τῶν ἑαυτῶν ὑπὸ ἀπαιδευσίας, τιμίας ποιοῦσι 347d τὰς αὐλητρίδας, πολλοῦ μισθούμενοι ἀλλοτρίαν φωνὴν τὴν τῶν αὐλῶν, καὶ διὰ τῆς ἐκείνων φωνῆς ἀλλήλοις σύνεισιν· ὅπου δὲ καλοὶ κἀγαθοὶ συμπόται καὶ πεπαιδευμένοι εἰσίν, οὐκ ἂν ἴδοις οὔτʼ αὐλητρίδας οὔτε ὀρχηστρίδας οὔτε ψαλτρίας, ἀλλὰ αὐτοὺς αὑτοῖς ἱκανοὺς ὄντας συνεῖναι ἄνευ τῶν λήρων τε καὶ παιδιῶν τούτων διὰ τῆς αὑτῶν φωνῆς, λέγοντάς τε καὶ ἀκούοντας ἐν μέρει ἑαυτῶν κοσμίως, κἂν πάνυ 347e πολὺν οἶνον πίωσιν. οὕτω δὲ καὶ αἱ τοιαίδε συνουσίαι, ἐὰν μὲν λάβωνται ἀνδρῶν οἷοίπερ ἡμῶν οἱ πολλοί φασιν εἶναι, οὐδὲν δέονται ἀλλοτρίας φωνῆς οὐδὲ ποιητῶν, οὓς οὔτε ἀνερέσθαι οἷόν τʼ ἐστὶν περὶ ὧν λέγουσιν, ἐπαγόμενοί τε αὐτοὺς οἱ πολλοὶ ἐν τοῖς λόγοις οἱ μὲν ταῦτά φασιν τὸν ποιητὴν νοεῖν, οἱ δʼ ἕτερα, περὶ πράγματος διαλεγόμενοι ὃ ἀδυνατοῦσι ἐξελέγξαι·

Protagoras. Plato. ed. John Burnet. Oxford. 1903.

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Current edition Perseus

Πρωταγόρας (Greek) (Platonis Opera, Tomus III: Tetralogia V-VII. Burnet, John, editor. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1903.)

Translations (1)

Protagoras Perseus (Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 2. Lamb, W.R.M., translator. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924 (printing).) — 347 focus

Soc.

Hence I should never reproach you, Pittacus, if you would only speak what is moderately reasonable and true. 347a But as it is, since you lie so grievously about the greatest matters with an air of speaking the truth, on this score I reproach you.
Such is my view, Prodicus and Protagoras, I said, of Simonides’ intention in composing this ode.
Then Hippias remarked: It certainly seems to me, Socrates, that you have given a good exposition of the poem: but I also have an elegant discourse upon it, 347b which I will perform for you if you wish.
Yes, Hippias, said Alcibiades, but some other time: for the moment the proper thing, according to the agreement which Protagoras and Socrates made between them, will be for Socrates to answer any questions that Protagoras may still wish to put to him, but if he prefers to answer Socrates, then it will be for Socrates to ask.
On this I remarked: For my part I place it in Protagoras’s hands to do whichever he likes best. 347c But if he does not mind, let us talk no more of poems and verses, but consider the points on which I questioned you at first, Protagoras, and on which I should be glad to reach, with your help, a conclusion. For it seems to me that arguing about poetry is comparable to the wine-parties of common market-folk. These people, owing to their inability to carry on a familiar conversation over their wine by means of their own voices and discussions— 347d such is their lack of education—put a premium on flute-girls by hiring the extraneous voice of the flute at a high price, and carry on their intercourse by means of its utterance. But where the party consists of thorough gentlemen who have had a proper education, you will see neither flute-girls nor dancing-girls nor harp-girls, but only the company contenting themselves with their own conversation, and none of these fooleries and frolics—each speaking and listening decently in his turn, 347e even though they may drink a great deal of wine. And so a gathering like this of ours, when it includes such men as most of us claim to be, requires no extraneous voices, not even of the poets, whom one cannot question on the sense of what they say; when they are adduced in discussion we are generally told by some that the poet thought so and so, and by others, something different, and they go on arguing about a matter which they are powerless to determine.

Commentary

Commentary on Plato, Protagoras (Plato. Platonis Protagoras. Adam, James; Adam, Adela Marion, editors. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1921.) focus

νῦν δὲ—σφόδρα γάρ . Cf. Apol. 38B νῦν δὲ—οὐ γὰρ ἔστινand note in loc. Here διὰ ταῦτα sums up the clause σφόδρα γὰρ— λέγειν .

ἐπιδείξω : see on ἐπιδειξάμενος in 328D

ὡμολογησάτην : in 338D where, however, the terms of the agreement are somewhat more stringent.

περὶ μὲν ᾀσμάτων—ἐάσωμεν . Heindorf quotes Alc. I , 113D ἐάσαντες οὖν περὶ αὐτῶν σκοποῦσιν ὁπότερα συνοίσει πράξασιν .

καὶ γὰρ δοκεῖ μοι κτλ. This passage (from τὸ περὶ ποιήσεως down to κἂν πάνυ πολὺν οἶνον πίωσιν ) is quoted by Athenaeus, 111. 51. It is doubtful whether Plato is here animadverting on Xenophon's Symposium , in which (2. 1 and 9. 3 ff) both a flute-girl and a dancing-girl appear: the words τοῖς συμποσίοις τοῖς τῶν φαύλων καὶ ἀγοραίων ἀνθρώπων would contain a very pretty hit at Xenophon, if the evidence for the allusion were more complete. There is a similar passage in the Symposium of Plato (176E) εἰσηγοῦμαι τὴν μὲν ἄρτι εἰσελθοῦσαν αὐλητρίδα χαίρειν ἐᾶν, αὐλοῦσαν ἑαυτῇ ἢ ἂν βούληται ταῖς γυναιξὶ ταῖς ἔνδον : this passage Athenaeus (XI. 112) cites in support of his theory of a literary rivalry between Plato and Xenophon.

ἀγοραίων : like the Latin circumforanei , ‘ ἀγοραῖος , vel ut critici veteres volunt, ἀγόραιος , est ὁ ἐν ἀγορᾷ τεθραμμένος , s. qui totos dies forum conterit, quem ἀγορᾶς περίτριμμα Comicus appellat, vilis et ex ima plebe homo, Aristoph. Eqq. 181 ὁτιὴ πονηρὸς κἀξ ἀγορᾶς εἶ καὶ θρασύς : 214 τὰ δ’ ἄλλα σοι πρόσεστι δημαγωγικά, φωνὴ μιαρά, γέγονας κακῶς, ἀγόραιος εἶ ’ (Heindorf).

τιμίας ποιοῦσι τὰς αὐλητρίδας : ‘run up the price of flute-players’: τὸ γὰρ σπάνιον—τίμιον ( Euthyd. 304B ). Heindorf aptly quotes Xen. De Vect. IV. 10 χρυσίον ὄταν πολὺ παραφανῇ αὐτὸ μὲν ἀτιμότερον γίγνεται, τὸ δὲ ἀργύριον τιμιώτερον ποιεῖ .

καὶ πεπαιδευμένοι . So Athenaeus (III. 51) and the second hand in T: B and T read πεπαιδευμένοι . Schanz brackets πεπαιδευμένοι , but ὑπὸ ἀπαιδευσίας in l. 21 is in its favour.

οὐκ ἂν ἴδοις—ψαλτρίας . Cf. Theaet. 173D δεῖπνα καὶ σὺν αὐλητρίσι κῶμοι, οὐδὲ ὄναρ πράττειν προσίσταται αὐτοῖς (i.e. τοῖς ὡς ἀληθῶς φιλοσόφοις ).

κἂν πάνυ πολὺν οἶνον πίωσιν : like Socrates in the Symposium : see 220A, 223C. In Laws , I. 637B ff. Plato argues that wine properly used is the means of teaching self-control, since the man who will be σώφρων when drunk will a fortiori be σώφρων when sober: cf. ibid. II. 673E ff.

ἐὰν μὲν κτλ. μένsuggests that in different society the same would not be the case—an antithesis which is already expressed in 347C D. Cf. Apol. 17B εἰ μὲν γὰρ τοῦτο λέγουσιν, ὁμολογοίην ἂν ἔγωγε οὐ κατὰ τούτους εἶναι ῥήτωρ. For λάβωνται cf. (with Sauppe) Symp. 218A νέου ψυχῆς μὴ ἀφυοῦς ὅταν λάβωνταιcf. (sc. οἱ ἐν φιλοσοφίᾳ λόγοι ).

οὔτε ἀνερέσθαι—ἐπαγόμενοί τε : for the sentiment see on 329A above: for οὔτε—τε on 309B for αὐτούς after οὕς on 313A ἐπάγεσθαι is the regular word for ‘cite’, e.g. Rep. II. 364C μάρτυρας ποιητὰς ἐπάγονται.

ὃ ἀδυνατοῦσιν : ὅ , not in B and T, was restored by Heindorf: it has since been found in a Vienna MS.

ἐῶσιν : the subject is supplied from ἀνδρῶν οἷοίπερ ἡμῶν οἱ πολλοί φασιν εἶναι .

Plato Protagoras 347

ed. John Burnet

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