Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Theodor Braun (Translator), 5.98

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Melier: „Das also, meint ihr, würde euch solche Siche
rung nicht gewähren? Wie ihr unS aber zu verstehen gebt,
daß es sich unS gegenüber nicht um Recht, sondern nur um
euren Vorteil handelt, so wollen auch wir euch nun über unseren
Vorteil belehren und versuchen, euch von eurer Meinung zu
bekehren. Am Ende könnte unser beider Vorteil denn doch
zusammengehen. Treibt ihr denn nicht alle jetzt Neutralen
ins feindliche Lager, wenn sie nach solchen Erfahrungen sich
sagen müssen, daß es über kurz oder lang auch ihnen an den
Kragen gehen wird? Was hättet ihr dann weiter davon, als
daß ihr eure jetzigen Feinde nur noch mächtiger macht und
solche, die es gar nicht werden wollen, wider Willen dazu
drängt?"

History of the Peloponnesian War. Thucydides. Theodor Braun (Translator). Leipzig. 1917.

Current edition First1KGreek

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs (German) (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Braun, Theodor, translator. Leipzig: Insel-Verlag, 1917.)

Editions (1)

Ἱστορίαι Perseus (Thucydides. Historiae, Vol 1-2. Jones, Henry Stuart, editor. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1910. (1942 printing).) — 5.98.1 focus

ΜΗΛ.

ἐν δ’ ἐκείνῳ οὐ νομίζετε ἀσφάλειαν; δεῖ γὰρ αὖ καὶ ἐνταῦθα, ὥσπερ ὑμεῖς τῶν δικαίων λόγων ἡμᾶς ἐκβιβάσαντες τῷ ὑμετέρῳ ξυμφόρῳ ὑπακούειν πείθετε, καὶ ἡμᾶς τὸ ἡμῖν χρήσιμον διδάσκοντας, εἰ τυγχάνει καὶ ὑμῖν τὸ αὐτὸ ξυμβαῖνον, πειρᾶσθαι πείθειν. ὅσοι γὰρ νῦν μηδετέροις ξυμμαχοῦσι, πῶς οὐ πολεμώσεσθε αὐτούς, ὅταν ἐς τάδε βλέψαντες ἡγήσωνταί ποτε ὑμᾶς καὶ ἐπὶ σφᾶς ἥξειν; κἀν τούτῳ τί ἄλλο ἢ τοὺς μὲν ὑπάρχοντας πολεμίους μεγαλύνετε, τοὺς δὲ μηδὲ μελλήσαντας γενέσθαι ἄκοντας ἐπάγεσθε;

Translations (9)

The History of the Grecian War Perseus (Thucydides. The English works of Thomas Hobbes of Malmesbury. Hobbes, Thomas. translator. London: John Bohn, 1843.) — 5.98.1 focus

[1] Mel. Do you think then, that there is no assurance in that which we propounded? For here again (since driving us from the plea of equity you persuade us to submit to your profit), when we have shewed you what is good for us, we must endeavour to draw you to the same, as far forth as it shall be good for you also. As many therefore as now are neutral, what do you but make them your enemies, when, beholding these your proceedings, they look that hereafter you will also turn your arms upon them? And what is this, but to make greater the enemies you have already, and to make others your enemies, each against their wills, that would not else have been so?

History of the Peloponnesian War Perseus (Thucydides. History of the Peloponnesian War. Crawley, Richard, translator. London and Toronto: J. M. Dent and Sons Ltd.; New York: E. P. Dutton and Co., 1914.) — 5.98.1 focus

‘But do you consider that there is no security in the policy which we indicate? For here again if you debar us from talking about justice and invite us to obey your interest, we also must explain ours, and try to persuade you, if the two happen to coincide. How can you avoid making enemies of all existing neutrals who shall look at our case and conclude from it that one day or another you will attack them? And what is this but to make greater the enemies that you have already, and to force others to become so who would otherwise have never thought of it?’

Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs First1KGreek (Thucydides. Geschichte des Peloponnesischen Kriegs. Wahrmund, Adolf, translator. Stuttgart: Krais and Hoffmann, 1864.) — 5.98 focus

Melier: „Werdet ihr nun in dem Folgenden keine Siche-Z
rung: eures Vortheils sehen? — denn da ihr uns die Berufung auf
Rechlsgründe ganz abgeschnitten habt und uns anweist, nur eurem!
Vortheil'zu dienen; so..müssen.wir euch jetzt wohl dadurch zu
überreden suchen,- daß wir euch zeigen, worin unser Vortheil liegt, sofern'
derselbe.nämlich mit dem eurigen zusammenfällt. Wie sollte es >wohl
möglich.sein, -daß'ihr diejenigen, welche, es bis jetzt mit keiner von
beiden Parteien halten, nicht, in. eure-Feinde, verwandelt, wenn sie
durch die Erfahrung unseres.Shcicksals zu der.Ueberzeugung kommen
müssen, daß es eurerseits auch einmal an sie gehen wird? Was, thut
ihr'also anders, als daß ihr eure schon vorhandenen Feinde vermehrt?
und diejenigen, die nicht einmal daran denken eS>zu werden,, selbsti
wider Willen dazu zwingt?"

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponèse First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése, Vol. 1-2. Zévort, Marie Charles, translator. Paris: Charpentier, 1852.) — 5.98 focus

XCVIII. L es M éliens. « Mais croyez-vous que l’autre politique¹ ne contribuerait pas plus à votre sécurité? — Car il faut bien que nous partions de là², puisque vous nous jetez en dehors des principes de justice, pour nous amener à vous suivre sur le terrain de votre intérêt; il faut que, nous aussi, si notre intérêt se trouve d’accord avec le vôtre, nous nous efforcions de vous le démontrer. — Comment sera-t-il donc possible que vous n’ayez pas pour ennemis tous les peuples neutres aujourd’hui, lorsque, tournant Jes yeux vers nous, ils penseront qu’un jour viendra où vous les attaquerez aussi à leur tour? Que faites-vous autre chose par là que de grandir vos ennemis actuels, et de tourner contre vous, en dépit d’eux-mêmes, ceux qui n’avaient aucune intention hostile?

³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸

Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése First1KGreek (Thucydides. Histoire de la Guerre du Péloponnése. Bétant, Élie-Ami, translator. Paris: Librairie de L. Hachette, 1863.) — 5.98 focus

Les Méliens. Et ne croyez-vous pas qu’une conduite opposée offrirait les mêmes gages de sécurité? — Puisque vous nous avez fait sortir du terrain de la justice pour nous amener sur celui de l’utilité, force nous est de démontrer que votre intérêt se confond avec le nôtre. — Ceux qui sont neutres aujourd’hui, comment ne les pousserez-vous pas à vous faire la guerre, lorsque, tournant les regards vers nous, ils penseront qu’un jour ou l’autre vous marcherez contre eux? N'est-ce donc pas accroître vos ennemis actuels et attirer malgré eux contre vous des peuples qui n'y songeaient même pas?

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides, Vol. 1-4. Smith, Charles Foster, translator. London and Cambridge, MA: Heinemann and Harvard University Press, 1919-1923.) — 5.98.1 focus

[1] MEL. “But do you not think there is security in the other course?¹ For here also it is necessary, just as you force us to abandon all pleas of justice and seek to persuade us to give ear to what is to your own interests, that we, too, tell you what is to our advantage and try to persuade you to adopt it, if that happens to be to your advantage also. How, we say, shall you not make enemies of all who are now neutral, as soon as they look at our case and conclude that some day you will come against them also? And in this what else are you doing but strengthening the enemies you already have, and bringing upon you, against their inclination, others who would never have thought of becoming your enemies?”

History of the Peloponnesian War First1KGreek (Thucydides. The history of the Peloponnesian War, Volume 1-2. Dale, Henry, translator. London: Heinemann and Henry G. Bohn, 1851-1852.) — 5.98.1 focus

[1] Mel.

And do you consider that there is no security in that other case? (For here again, as you have excluded us from appeals to justice, and urge us to yield to considerations of your advantage, we too must explain what is expedient for us, and so endeavour to persuade you, if the same happen to be for your interest also.) For how can you avoid making enemies of all that are at present neutral, when, on looking to the present case, they reckon that some time or other you will proceed against them also? And by that course what do you do, but aggrandize your present enemies, and bring those upon you against their will who would never else be likely to become hostile to you?

Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci First1KGreek (Historia Belli Peloponnesiaci. Haase, Friedrich, translator. Paris: Firmin Didot, 1869.) — 5.98.1 focus

[1] Mel. In illa vero ratione nihil praesidii esse putatis? Oportet enim vicissim hic etiam, quemadmodum vos ex juris disceptatione nos extrusistis et suadelis, ut vestra; utilitati morem geramus, sic nos quoque docere vos id, quod nobis est utile, et si idem etiam vobis utile esse demonstretur, operam dare, ut vobis de eo persuadeamus. Quomodo enim hostes vobis non reddetis illos, quotquot nunc neutras partes sequuntur, quum haec, quae nunc facitis, intuentes vos contra se quoque aliquando venturos existimabunt? Hae vero ralione quid aliud quam pristinos quidem hostes augetis , illos vero, qui ne unquam quidem vobis hostes futuri erant, invitos adjungitis?

La storia di Tucidide First1KGreek (Thucydides. Della storia di Tucidide volgarizzata libri otto. Anonymous translator. Florence: Tipografia Galileiana, 1835.) — 5.98 focus

Melii. « E fia vero che non troviate sicurezza in quell’altra nostra proposizione ? Poiché anche qui bisogna che, siccome voi impedendoci di parlare con titolo di ragione, ci persuadete ad obbedire al vostro interesse, cosi dal canto nostro dichiarandovi quel che è utile per noi, ci proviamo a persuadervi che quel medesimo lo sia anco per voi. E vaglia il vero : come potrete non inimicarvi tutti quei che sono fuori della lega di entrambi, ogni volta che , vedendo questo vostro procedere con noi, dovranno credere che prima o poi anderete pure contro di loro? E che altro fate in questo modo se non ingrandire i presenti vostri nemici, e indurre a malgrado loro a divenirlo quei che forse non lo sarebbero stati ? »

Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 5.98

Theodor Braun (Translator)

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